Nifty McNiftington ([info]boffo) wrote,
@ 2008-10-01 11:40:00
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Bailout Hut
Most politicians and people in the media seem to think that the financial bailout is absolutely necessary to prevent our nation's (and the world's) financial collapse. But most ordinary citizens don't think this is true, and see the bailout of a massive expropriation of responsible people's wealth to be transfered to rich sociopaths and irresponsible idiots.

So the politicians and media look at this discrepancy, and argue, "What's wrong with the ordinary people? Why are they too stupid to see how important this is?"

But the problem is not lack of intelligence. It's lack of trust. It's not that the people are incapable of following the reasoning of the politicians and media. It's that they simply don't believe the politicians and media are telling the truth. It's not enough to present a convincing sounding argument when the person you're talking to knows you're a silver-tongued liar capable of fabricating a convincing sounding argument out of nothing.

Imagine you know a drug-addicted loser who's incapable of holding down a job and survives by surfing friend's couches, "borrowing" money he has no intention of paying back, and petty theft. Then this guy asks you to invest in some scheme that he absolutely insists will pay off for you. If you're not an idiot, you'll tell him to bugger off. You wouldn't even want to listen to him explain why the investment is such a good idea. You know he'll say anything to get your money, you have no way of verifying what he says, and you figure it's far more likely that he'll just spend the money on drugs than it is that he's both being truthful and has accurately assessed the investment opportunity.

This is what is happening with the bailout. It doesn't matter what the government/media says about why this bailout is necessary. People look at the situation and say, "So some CEO got paid $50 million to destroy $50 billion dollars of wealth, and you want to give him a bunch of my money? And he happens to be a close personal friend of yours who has paid you massive bribes donations?" And the government and media say, "But it's really important. Sure, every time we've done anything in recent memory we've been either massively corrupt or massively incompetent (usually both), but this time we're doing the right thing. Trust us!"

It is not the people's fault for being too stupid or too untrusting. It's the government and media's fault for being so untrustworthy. The people are right to be skeptical.

Contrast this to the Manhattan Project. There, the government essentially said, "We need a bunch of your money. We can't tell you what we're using it for, but it's really important." And the people said, "Okay. We believe that you're using this money to win the war, and that's what we want too, so we'll make the sacrifices you say are important."

The difference is that in the 40s, the government really was trying to do what was best for the country by winning the war, and the media really wanted them to. But now, people see politicians (in both parties) as caring more about enriching themselves and their friends, clinging to power, and scoring partisan political points than they do about good governance. And they see the media as caring more about enriching themselves and their friends, clinging to power, and scoring partisan political points than they do about informing the people about the truth and ensuring good governance.

When Nancy Pelosi says the bailout is absolutely vital to our nation's financial survival, but then sacrifices the opportunity to pass it so that she can call Republicans doody-heads, what are people supposed to think? And when many Republicans agree that it's absolutely vital to our nation's financial survival, but then vote against it because Nancy Pelosi called them doody-heads, what are people supposed to think? I can see only two rational conclusions from this behavior: Either our elected leaders are such small-minded petulant corrupt power-mad sociopaths that they care more about their own temper tantrums than they do about our nation's survival, or they're lying to us about how important and necessary this bailout is. Either way, why should we listen to them?

Note that this analysis is independent of whether the bailout is actually a good idea or a bad idea.


(23 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]madbard
2008-10-01 06:48 pm UTC (link)
Since you didn't friends-lock this post, do you object to people linking to it?

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[info]boffo
2008-10-01 06:52 pm UTC (link)
Go ahead.

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[info]kittenrae
2008-10-01 07:19 pm UTC (link)
cool. I'm also interested, since you have a background in economics, what your personal thoughts are on the situation.

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[info]boffo
2008-10-01 10:40 pm UTC (link)
I honestly don't know. This isn't an Economics issue. It's a High Finance issue. And I'm not an expert on High Finance*.

My friends Skan and Dean know a lot more about Finance than I do, and they both say the bailout is necessary. But then, they work in the Finance industry, so they're not exactly unbiased.

In general it's hard to know what to think about this issue, because there's no good way for a layman to tell the difference between someone who knows what he's talking about, a crank who only thinks he knows what he's talking about, and a partisan hack who's deliberately spouting misinformation. And even then, many of the people who know what they're talking about will disagree. What's the layman supposed to think?

* The relationship between Economics and Finance is kind of like the relationship between Physics and Engineering. A physicist wouldn't be able to design a helicopter rotor. An engineer would design that, using the theories that the physicist developed.

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[info]kittenrae
2008-10-02 12:20 am UTC (link)
As a layman, I was asking you because I thought you knew something. :) Gaaaaah.

And thanks for explaining the difference between economics & finance - I had no idea what the difference was. Since my brother majored in international relations and finance, he ought to be able to explain it to me then, right?

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[info]crasch
2008-10-01 06:49 pm UTC (link)
Well said.

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[info]jordan179
2008-10-01 06:53 pm UTC (link)
I understand economics and think that the bailout is a really bad idea because it insulates those who made mistakes in the market from the consequences of their mistakes, while penalizing those who did nothing to deserve it. Furthermore, by trying to spread the damage through the system it trades the certainity of a recession for the possibility of a depression.

Better we take the hit and move on than that we try to cushion it and risk falling over completely.

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[info]magdalene1
2008-10-01 07:03 pm UTC (link)
This is one of the most intelligent things I've read on the bailout to date.

Especially when it's a BE AFRAID AND DECIDE RIGHT NOW! scenario. If Bush OR Pelosi said "Russians have attacked Kansas and we need to retaliate" I'd want to see the smoking crater and the geiger counter readings and the hammer and sickle on the side of the missile before I'd trust 'em.

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[info]ernunnos
2008-10-01 08:38 pm UTC (link)
Standard high pressure sales tactic. The only correct response to someone trying to sell you something while screaming "YOU MUST ACT NOW!" is "Ok, see you tomorrow." If you can't afford to sleep on it, you can't afford it.

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[info]robbbbbb
2008-10-01 09:59 pm UTC (link)
Hey, guys: Don't just do something. Stand there.

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[info]billhauk
2008-10-01 07:14 pm UTC (link)
I largely agree -- except for the comparison to the Manhattan Project. Except for a handful of influential Congressmen who were able to add stuff to appropriations bills without anyone asking questions, nobody even knew that the government had asked for money for a Sooper Sekrit weapons project. It wasn't like the White House actually put stories in The Onion about the nation's top scientists being on a camping trip in the desert. And one would have to engage in a bit of revisionist history to argue that Republicans trusted FDR to actually do what was in the best interests of the country.

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[info]boffo
2008-10-01 10:31 pm UTC (link)
Fair enough. But the larger point is that people were more willing to trust the government when the government was more trustworthy. That people are not so trusting now is the government's fault, not the people's.

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[info]pasquin
2008-10-01 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Keep in mind that the people who are urging the bailout are also the ones who oversaw the industry and denied there was a problem. If you discover that the ref of a regular season game was blowing calls, you wouldn't invite him back to do the playoffs. Americans aren't that stupid.



Clearly this video is partisan. Republicans liked the easy credit, too. But the idea inside this clip survives: government created this mess, and nobody thinks that government can solve it.

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[info]jimmyether
2008-10-01 08:28 pm UTC (link)
Good assessment of the public stance. My only quibble with your example of the "drug-addicted loser" is that it doesn't completely track unless that loser is also telling you that some hacker is poised and ready to start pulling money out of your bank account, and only by investing in his scheme can you *possibly* avoid that eventuality.

Point being, this is not about wall street asking for a bailout. That wall street is, as Clinton said today, gone. The independent investment firms are no more. This is about a credit freeze brought on by a combination of related and unrelated ills. This stock market stuff just all that crap coming to a head, and it frankly a bit of a red herring. And we all stand to lose in either direction.

The most compelling argument *for* the plan is that it is more likely to help than doing nothing and letting an already stressed and broken economy try and fix itself. That's like having a terminally sick pet and trying to decide whether to pay for some expensive medication that has an uncertainty of working, or to just say "ahhhh, he can probably heal himself up just fine after a few years". Depends on how precious that pet is to you I guess.

Depends on how precious your 401K, IRA, credit rating, job, business, etc. is to you I guess.

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(Anonymous)
2008-10-01 09:35 pm UTC (link)
The underlying assumption in the bailout plan is that the government knows how to spend $700 billion better than taxpayers who've produced it. Let the banks go bankrupt, let credit get tight. It should be hard to borrow money, especially when you are not a good credit risk.

I've never undertaken a loan in my life. Why should I care about the availability of credit to others? This assumption that there will be calamity if the government doesn't act is wrong. It will be a calamity for the idiots who haven't saved any money and who are overleveraged. Most of the rest of us will be just fine.

Jim

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[info]tauneutrino
2008-10-01 09:48 pm UTC (link)
I think the simple thing the Feds are missing is the simplistic and completely wrong suggestion that taking $700 billion out of private hands will do more good in the mortgage securities markets than how it will otherwise be invested.

Jim

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[info]ex_greymaide85
2008-10-01 10:32 pm UTC (link)
Pets with terminal illness are eventually euthanized.

Imjussayin. . .

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[info]jimothyrawks
2008-10-01 09:47 pm UTC (link)
you're aware of course that the bailout is a means of convincing the larger investors that their money is secure? I said in another place that I can't remember that rich people invest when they're convinced poor people will spend money.

also I like you and mostly like your opinions, want to be friends?

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[info]boffo
2008-10-01 10:43 pm UTC (link)
Sure. Friend away.

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[info]miss_breeziness
2008-10-01 09:49 pm UTC (link)
This is a very good article indeed.

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[info]radiumx
2008-10-01 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Either our elected leaders are such small-minded petulant corrupt power-mad sociopaths that they care more about their own temper tantrums than they do about our nation's survival, or they're lying to us about how important and necessary this bailout is.

I don't think this is really an either-or.

The Secretary of the Treasure admitted that $700 billion was a number pulled out of thin air. That's enough to buy over just about every home being foreclosed in America - yet the money is going to go to the businesses who cocked up the entire thing.

If a lending bank fails, either it will get snapped up (which we have seen) or another bank with better lending practices will rise up in its place. Everyone says the nation will 'collapse' if we don't bailout, but what are the doomsday scenarios?

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[info]1144
2008-10-02 01:48 am UTC (link)
I'm late to the party, but hopefully a few new people can check out this flow chart of the fundamental causes of the problem, as I (and the author) understand it. Note that the private lenders didn't have much choice about the incentive environment. Their choices were to play by the new rules or lose soundly to those who did.


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(Anonymous)
2008-10-02 05:41 am UTC (link)
I don't buy it. Merrill Lynch, Citigroup, Lehman, Countrywide, Indymac, Wachovia, Washington Mutual, Bear Stearns and others all drank the bull housing market Kool-Aid. Yes it was a regulated environment, but they got themselves in trouble. They should all be allowed to go bankrupt with extreme prejudice.

If you play bridge all the time and smoke pot like Jimmy Cayne, play dilletante investor like Stan O'Neal or lie to your investors like Chuck Prince you at the very least deserve to go bankrupt. The Boards of Directors that let these idiots run the show and their investors deserve to lose their money.

Jim

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